10008 Chilean type carbine prototype presentation

As of March 2019, a circa 1900 -1901 Chilean type Luger carbine rig, serial number 10008 was listed and offered by a major Luger dealer for $115,000.

Opinion. 10008 appears to be authentic with all original serial number matching parts, except for the no serial number, a.k.a. nsn replacement wide grip safety with an added rear gripstrap semi-circular notch to the stock lug, updating the gun from a push-button to turn-lever attachment, with the only other change noted is that the nsn barrel has been post manufacture replaced with a Francotte ‘Borchardt’ type target barrel with an added 1920s C/N nitro proof. Chilean type Luger 10008 was manufactured circa 1900-1901, the same time-frame as Chilean type Lugers 10003, 10005 and 10010. The only other modification to 10008 was the mid-1920s nsn barrel replacement. The horizontal style and placement of the proofs on the receiver left side, the left side frame rail, the top of the breechblock and the barrel underside, is similar to many of the mid 1920s new model Luger “parts” hunting carbines.

Although, in this instance the 1920s commercial horizontal C/N nitro proofs may not have been added to 10008 specifically by DWM for excess sale to the public as was 10005 with a vertical DWM C/N nitro proof to the receiver and original 10005 serialized barrel underside, which survives in its original, albeit pre-WW1 modified configuration, with proofs added to 10008 or required solely for the barrel replacement, i.e. it is not certain if the proofs to 10008, interestingly being horizontal or “Lazy N” nitro proofs, were added at the same time or when the 10008 barrel was replaced, and additionally if the original 7-inch barrel was C/N nitro proofed, although probably not, based on the unproofed 10010 barrel.

The “Lazy N” or nitro proofs  on 10008 are similar to the DWM pre-WW1 through 1919 commercial horizontal proofs , but are slightly smaller and the crown design is different from the DWM horizontal nitro crown. Additionally, the placement of these 10008 proofs, specifically the ones stamped on the left frame rail and the top of the breechblock were locations not used by DWM on the pre-WW1 nor post WW1 commercial guns, or the 1919 newly manufactured guns. These 10008 commercial proofs , with a slightly different crown design, are coincidentally, identical to the Krieghoff commercial rework proof marks.

To confound matters, 10010 has no added vertical C/N nitro proofs, of which 10008, in a likely scenario, also lacked vertical or horizontal proofs until applied in the mid-1920s due to the barrel replacement.

The 2-4-6 multi-position rear link sight underside and internal configuration of 10008 is correct for the Chilean type Lugers vs. the 1-3-5 multi-position rear link sight prototype hunting carbines. Although, with a 12-inch barrel replacement, one would expect to see modifications to the rear sight. There is nothing unusual about the hunting stock attaching iron being unnumbered and fitted in the 1920s although 10008, as originally made in circa 1900-01 as a Chilean carbine with a 7-inch barrel, the original stock was most likely a flat-board, wooden push-button holster/board stock assembly. Additionally, the Chilean type carbine pistols, because of the 7-inch barrels used, required one of the dual Riband ribbon recoil springs be a thicker, i.e. stronger spring for a more positive closing.

In the case of 10008, both flat mainsprings are equally thick replacements, required because of the closing force needed for the heavier replacement 12-inch target barrel. As to how 10008 was originally configured, the mainspring consisted of the original thin and one thick mainspring as originally manufactured is certain. The current 1920s-like style hunting stock, which is usually associated with the 1920s Luger hunting carbine, was probably added at the time of the barrel change-out, which is unusual as the 10008 first frame knife-edge forging stock lug was specifically modified to accommodate a first pattern turn-lever stock attachment. Pictured are the Riband ribbon mainsprings of typical Chilean Lugers 10005 and 10008.

Certain modifications to 10005, 10008 and 10010 were done pre-WW1 and were specific updates, which included replacement of the narrow grip safety to a wide grip safety and adding a rear gripstrap circular notch to the stock lug, updating the gun from a push-button to turn-lever stock attachment. For reasons not understood, the number 4 was added to every major part of 10005, including the nsn replacement wide grip safety, while no numbers were added to 10008, possibly indicating a different time frame or situation for the changes. 10005 stayed in DWM inventory until it was excessed in the early 1920s for private sale, as indicated by DWM/BKIW applied vertical C/N proofs on the barrel underside and left side receiver only.  

Also, being excessed in the early 1920s, by DWM or BKIW, required the GERMANY export stamp applied, in this instance, to the rear frame of 10005. Curiously, 10008 lacks a GERMANY export stamp as does 10010. The 10005 sn gun blue finish has a partially faded appearance as does 10008 and the top of the rear link finish has been modified with the original white lead removed from the numbers and indents and the original tempered blue, sliding portion of the tangent sight has a matt black-like appearance vs. the original appearance of the rear sights of prototype hunting carbine 58 and Chilean carbine 10003.

There is no doubt that the finish of 10005 has been altered in some areas, described in the auction description as general overall fading of the original finish, in addition to the top of the rear link of 10005 and 10008, as attested by the odd lack of, or removal of the internal or inside finish of the 10005 take-down side plate.

There is also no doubt that 10008 was originally made in circa 1900-1901 as a Chilean type Luger with a 7-inch barrel, based on the 2-4-6 multi-position, adjustable tangent rear sight. Additionally, based on the rear link GL hallmark logo, 10008 was one of a few identified Chilean type Lugers, the others being 10003, 10005 and 10010. All of these Lugers survive with their original 7-inch barrels except 10008.

Regarding the 10008 accompanying no-serial-number 1920s era Luger hunting carbine wooden stock, it is fitted with a push-button attaching iron, curiously, with a two-screw mounting tang, making the stock assembly very suspicious for multiple reasons. Pictured together are left side views of Chilean Luger hunting carbine rigs, 10008 and 10035. 10008 is fitted with a 1920s style, unique two-screw push-button attaching iron Luger hunting carbine stock. 10035 is fitted with a standard, single-screw attaching iron Luger hunting carbine stock. Note the specific differences between the Luger hunting carbine stocks.

The Chilean type Luger carbines used the first design, flat board style wooden stocks, exclusively with push-button attaching irons. They had one attaching screw through a short, integral upper and lower attaching iron tang, securing the attaching iron to the Chilean push-button flat board stock.

Luger Hunting Carbine Hunting stocks, first pattern vs. second pattern differences

In The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols, a.k.a. TBLAP © 2010 – 2011 by Görtz/Sturgess in Volume I, Chapter 3, page 256, Figure 3-161, the Old Model Luger hunting carbine stock variations are described as the First Pattern and Second Pattern. The first pattern being a single-screw mounting tang/turn lever attaching iron and the second and final production stock as a two-screw mounting tang/turn lever. The differences being the internal attaching iron/wooden interface as pictured in Figure 3-161 of TBLAP. Not mentioned or pointed out in the TBLAP Figure 3-161 is the larger 40mm height of the second pattern, two-screw attaching iron vs. the smaller 35 mm height of the first pattern, single-screw attaching iron.

This specific first design, single-screw tang, push-button attaching iron, first used with the Chilean style, flat board stock continued into the circa 1900-1901 very stylized early commercial prototype/production, two-digit serial number push-button Luger hunting carbines with wooden forestocks. The original, single-screw tang attaching iron was next redesigned with a sturdier, more positive attaching mechanism. The push-button was replaced using the dimensionally identical, first pattern single-screw attaching iron design, but with a turn-lever mechanism. The turn-lever mechanism was designed exclusively for the very few turn-lever modified stock lugs of the Chilean type prototypes, but not for the early prototype, two-digit serial numbered hunting carbines. Both the two-digit Chilean prototypes and two-digit hunting carbine prototypes had the same original, first frame forging, rear gripstrap, knife-edge, unmodified push-button stock lugs.

These new, first pattern hunting carbine stocks with the original single-screw tang attaching irons, but with turn-lever mechanisms are associated mostly with the four-digit, C-suffix prototype/presentation hunting carbines with turn-lever modified, first frame forging knife-edge stock lugs. Pictured is the push-button, single-screw attaching iron next to a knife-edge stock lug and a prototype/production, single-screw, turn lever attaching iron.

The evolution of the hunting carbine attaching iron design morphed or evolved into the final production configuration with no evidence of the subject 10008 associated, no-serial-number, push-button attaching iron with an upper and lower, two-screw extended tang in the mix, being the only such exampled noted. If any other example existed, one would expect to see it affixed to an early prototype Luger hunting carbine wooden stock and not to the current 1920s style hunting carbine stock, which is different in shape and form from the pre-WW1 prototype and production Luger hunting carbine stocks.

The final change to the turn-lever attaching iron was to extend the length of the upper and lower tang into the Luger hunting stock wooden neck, allowing for the use of two machine screws, resulting in a stronger attachment to the hunting carbine stock.   In addition to the lengthening of the attaching iron upper and lower tangs from a single-screw to a two-screw attachment, the height of the attaching iron was increased from 35 mm to 40 mm with a corresponding height increase to the neck of the wooden stock, further increasing the strength of the assembly.

Another minor, but significant change was to soften the rather sharp knife-edge entrance channel lip of the first pattern, turn lever attaching iron entrance channel with a softer, rounded edge to the final production pattern attaching iron top entrance channel lip. This eliminated the possibility of galling or initial binding in the very tight fit tolerance attaching iron entrance channel, while carefully installing/guiding the hunting carbine stock attaching iron into the equally tight tolerance Luger carbine stock lug channel, additionally compounded by the curved nature of the mating surfaces which, even though final production items, additionally required individual fitting adjustments per mating assemblies. There were no further changes. Pictured are three attaching iron examples, dimensioned for comparison.

Note that the 40mm height of the 10008, no-serial-number, two-screw tang, push-button attaching iron is dimensionally identical in height to the second pattern production two-screw tang, turn lever attaching iron and most interestingly, with the additional, unusual exception that the diameter of the push-button is larger at 13.6 mm vs. the typical, first pattern single-screw attaching iron, smaller 10mm diameter push-button.

The significant pre-WW1 DWM tool room modification update to 10008, in addition to the replacement of the narrow grip safety to a wide grip safety, is the semi-circular notch added to the first frame forging, knife-edge, rear grip strap stock lug, updating circa 1901 Chilean type Luger carbine 10008 from a push-button to a turn-lever, first pattern attaching iron stock attachment. These changes were also done to 10005 and 10010.

Another interesting aspect of the changes made to this small group of 7-inch barrel “presentation” Chilean Carbines is that not only were the changes done prior to WW1, they were probably done barely less than a couple of years after the 1900-1901 original manufacture, i.e. closer to 1903-1904 than to 1913, for example, as changing from the narrow to wide grip safety and push-button stock lug to a turn-lever stock attachment would be an unwarranted update after, say 1908.

The single-screw turn lever attaching iron vs. the final production two-screw attaching iron

The above information regarding the dating of the changes is based on an analysis of the of the Chilean variation “knife edge” termination of the rear gripstrap push-button stock lug and associated single-screw, upper and lower tang push-button attaching irons of both the original prototype Chilean flat board and the extremely rare prototype, first pattern commercial Luger hunting carbine stocks with a close-up view of a single-screw tang, turn lever, no-serial-number attaching iron.

The First Pattern Single-Screw Attaching Iron Turn Lever Luger Hunting Carbine Stock

A close-up, hi-resolution top view photograph of the above pictured, unmarked, first pattern Luger hunting carbine, single-screw, turn lever attaching iron tang shows evidence of the removal of a marking, i.e. of a small numeric font size serial number stamping.^[1]

Ironically, the most likely removal of 3-digits of a 5-digit 21xxx, first batch series production carbine serial number gives more authenticity or legitimacy to the “no-serial-number” stock attaching iron. The area where the serial number was removed is a rather distinct, refinished small rectangular, non-conforming machining surface appearance, lighter than the surrounding, undisturbed original bluing.

If the stock was originally assigned to a 4-digit C-suffix presentation carbine, serial number 9106 for example, the full 4-digit serial number would have been applied longitudinally to the lower tang. If a first pattern single-screw turn lever stock originally existed for Chilean Luger 10005, the serial number, in all likelihood, would have been applied longitudinally to the upper attaching iron tang, similar to the attaching iron of Chilean Luger 10003, or possibly, positioned laterally, as the last two digits of attaching iron of fixed rear sight Chilean Luger 10035.

Possibly, the subject first pattern, single-screw turn lever “no-serial-number” attaching iron Luger hunting carbine stock got separated from its 21xxx, first batch series of production Luger carbine pistol. The reason for the subsequent removal of the original three-digit serial number is unknown, perhaps for eventually applying a new serial number to match another 21xxx, first batch Luger carbine pistol.

Although, the removal of the attaching iron serial number, prior to obtaining a candidate 21xxx Luger carbine seems implausible, requiring two separate, but concurrent operations. Another consideration or factor is that the near mint condition of the subject, single-screw attaching iron shows little evidence of ever been affixed to a stock lug, yet, except for the removed serial number, the attaching iron finish is otherwise original.

There is the remote possibility that the subject production carbine serial number was, for reasons unknown, removed early on by DWM, as very few first pattern, single-screw turn lever attaching iron Luger hunting carbine stocks have been identified without a serial number, 10008 for example, although this is the first known instance of a serial number being removed on an otherwise genuine and authentic original, first pattern, single-screw turn lever attaching iron Luger hunting carbine stock.

It is not clear how many first pattern, single-screw turn lever attaching iron Luger hunting carbine stocks were used with the first 21xxx serial number series production Luger carbines, however, several examples have been identified in the 21620 – 21644 range. It is certain, however, that very few are associated with the approximate 9102 – 9116 serial number range C-suffix, GL hallmark presentation series carbines, which mostly sport first pattern, single-screw push-button hunting carbine stocks.

Regarding the subject of this article, the very few GL hallmark, “intended” presentation Chilean carbine, multi-position adjustable tangent rear link sight Lugers with first forging, knife edge, push-button stock lugs, which were later modified to accept first pattern single-screw turn lever hunting carbine stocks are 10005, 10008 and 10010. 

Just because these three Chilean Luger carbine pistol examples have been modified to accept the first pattern, single-screw turn lever hunting carbine stock, does not necessarily mean there were any single-screw turn lever stocks specifically made and serialized for 10005, 10008 and 10010, as all three examples remained in inventory for many years after their manufacture, and subsequent updates, apparently without mating stocks, never having been presented.

In addition, the fact that the three examples survived in near excellent condition, yet without matching, first pattern, single-screw/turn lever Luger hunting carbine stocks, most certainly, with not one serialized example being identified after 100 plus years, virtually assures that no such stocks exist. If, miraculously, one did surface, one would expect it to lack a swivel lanyard on the underside, interestingly, as does the curiously retro, push-button Luger hunting carbine stock of 10008.

Pictured is a table of identified known prototype/presentation military Chilean type and commercial  prototype/presentation hunting carbine Lugers showing what first frame forging knife-edge stock lugs will correctly fit with the different design attaching irons and which ones will not.  Note that only two of the five 1900-01 prototype, two-digit serial number push-button hunting stock-only carbines are identified by serial numbers, being 35 and 58. The other three are known to have existed as all three are pictured in The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols by Görtz/Sturgess © 2010 & 2011, the first one of unknown origins, the second one being held by Georg Franz, Luger’s son and the third belonging to Theodore Roosevelt, the 26^th President of the United States.

An examination of the first frame forging dimensions of the lower rear gripstrap “knife edge” termination push-button type stock lug and the final production turn lever stock lug in profile show the left and right-side channel guides appear to be dimensionally identical.

The differences, however, are to be found with the attaching irons, while the widths of both the single and two-screw tangs and attaching iron stayed the same, the height changed with the 10008 two-screw, push-button attaching iron, identical to the final production two-screw, turn lever attaching iron, being 5 mm taller or 40 mm than:

1. the 35mm height attaching irons of the original flat board,
2. first pattern push-button hunting stock and,
3. the first pattern turn lever hunting stock, the single-screw upper and lower tang attaching iron original height of 35 mm.

The additional 5 mm in total height affected the top half of the subject Chilean 10008 two-screw, larger diameter push-button attaching iron and final production, two-screw turn lever attaching iron, accompanied with a 5 mm increase to the height of the neck section of the hunting carbine wooden stock, both changes making for a beefier, wooden stock neck, along with a stronger anchoring of the longer, upper and lower tang, two-screw attaching iron to the stock, a unique, one-of-a-kind configuration.  

The semi-circular notch added to the rear edge of the push-button stock lug of a few of the Chilean type, 2-4-6 multi-position adjustable tangent rear link sight Lugers described herein, was done to accommodate the attachment of the commercial Luger, first pattern hunting carbine turn lever attaching iron, as it has been determined that the modified Chilean Luger stock lugs will only fit the 35 mm height, single-screw attaching irons of the first pattern design hunting carbine stocks fitted with the push-button and the interim design turn lever only and not the 40 mm height, upper and lower two-screw, 10008 larger diameter push-button and final, second pattern production, turn lever two-screw tang attaching iron. 

Any attempt to fit a production two-screw attaching iron, flat board-stock or hunting carbine stock with a two-screw production attaching iron to a modified Chilean Luger, first frame forging knife-edge push-button stock lug with the added semi-circular notch, fails when attempting to slide the attaching iron into the stock lug left and right side channels, which stops approximately 2 mm short of engaging the stock lug upper channel stops, thereby not aligning the turn lever over the stock lug added notch, thus not allowing the turn lever to rotate approximately 90 degrees counterclockwise into the locking position. The restriction, binding or interference occurs when the top of the attaching iron engages the left and right-side stock lug frame above the milled flat gripstrap walls, before it engages the upper left and right side stock lug channel stops.

Pictured side-by-side, in profile are the stop lugs of a typical first frame forging push-button stock lug vs. the second and final frame forging production stock lug. Note the difference in the shape of and upper termination blending of the rear gripstrap integral stock lugs.

Pictured are three examples of Chilean Lugers, originally configured for push-button stocks with added semi-circular notches fitted to:

1. Chilean 10005 with a first design push-button hunting stock 35 and Chilean Lugers fitted with the final production attaching iron 40mm height attaching irons being,
2. 10008 fitted with its 1920s type push-button hunting stock and,
3. Chilean Luger 10005 fitted with the final production turn lever hunting carbine stock.

The interference does not necessarily involve the added 5 mm vertical increase in height of the two-screw attaching iron, but ironically the leading edge curve or arch of the added 5 mm (B-triangulated) extension of the top, forward projection, which engages the beginning of the curved gripstrap section of the rear gripstrap surface, which starts beyond the milled flat surface machining walls on each side of the first frame forging Chilean gripstrap stock lug. Pictured is another straight-on and angled view of the milled flat, lower rear gripstrap wall on each side of a first frame forging stock lug.

Per a conversation with the seller/retailer who stated that the fitting of 10008 with its accompanying push-button hunting stock is a very tight tolerance, possibly the result of an improper 1920s fitting, with no movement as evidenced by the slight galling and white metal appearance of the no serial number attaching iron mating surface, a result of many installation and removal of the sliding nature of attaching and removal of the attaching iron from the stock lug. Additionally, stated in the web site description of 10008 that “we are not sure this stock is original to this gun.” Interestingly, while not questioning the integrity or authenticity of the stock itself.

Pictured is close-up view of the correct fitting of a turn lever modified Chilean Luger 10005 to an intended early push-button hunting stock, serial number 35 vs. an incorrect fitting of a final production, two-screw tang attaching iron turn lever hunting stock. Note that in the correct fitting, the bottom edge of the stock lug is aligned flush to bottom of the attaching iron channel.

This is not a one-off fit issue, as these first design push-button configurations are noted for their custom, individual fitting requirements, but in this instance was not the issue, as two Chilean type Lugers with dimensionally identical push-button stock lugs were used in trying to mate with several two-screw, turn lever attaching irons of:

1. a commercial production hunting carbine stock,
2. a navy and,
3. an artillery flat board-stock,

all with no success, with the only conclusion being that the few, first forging frames with Chilean type knife edge rear gripstrap termination push-button stock lugs with the added semi-circular notches were modified, exclusively, to fit the first interim design, limited commercial production, first pattern single-screw, turn lever Luger hunting carbine stock attaching irons.

Since several of these limited, first pattern commercial production single-screw, turn lever Luger hunting carbine stocks are associated with C-suffix, two and four-digit serial number presentation Luger hunting carbine rigs with first frame, knife-edge stock lug forgings, examples being 55C, and other identified examples being 9102.C, 9106.C, 9109.C, 9110.C, 9112.C, 9116.C, interestingly, all mated with modified push-button stock lugs with added semi-circular notch, verifies the above conclusions.

Additionally, it seems likely that the single-screw, turn lever attaching iron fitted Luger carbine hunting stock was, as stated above, made exclusively for the first push-button stock lug frame forgings, of the Chilean carbines, their push-button stock lugs being specifically modified by adding a semi-circular notch to accept these first pattern design, turn lever hunting carbine stocks as they are mostly associated with these variations. Pictured is GL hallmark presentation 2-4-6 multi-position adjustable tangent rear sight serial number 10005 as an originally configured flat board-stock/holster rig at manufacture and configured as a push-button hunting carbine rig. Although, since 10005 has been modified to accept a turn lever, technically it should be fitted with a single-screw, turn lever, first pattern Luger hunting carbine stock.

Regarding the single-screw push-button attaching irons in this, mostly presentation category, that have not been modified to turn lever, several of them are associated with the first design Luger hunting carbine stocks with the push-button attaching iron and it should be noted that the attaching irons of both the push-button and turn lever are of single-screw configuration are otherwise dimensionally identical, including the wooden stocks with the single-screw, turn lever attaching iron tangs, being the obvious, logical evolution of the Luger hunting carbine stock.

Stated in another way, the first frame forging, knife-edge push-button stock lug, Chilean or some 91xx presentation carbine Lugers, for example 9109.C, modified to turn lever will only fit the first pattern, single-screw turn lever hunting carbine stock and not the final pattern production, two-screw turn lever attaching iron Luger hunting carbine stock. Although, a first pattern, single-screw turn lever attaching iron Luger hunting carbine stock will fit the final frame forging stock lugs as attested by examples in the first batch 21xxx series, production hunting carbines.

Old Model Luger Hunting Carbine wooden stock weights

During this exercise it was noticed that the second pattern Luger hunting carbine stock with the two-screw, longer tangs, turn lever attaching irons felt lighter than the first pattern, single-screw, short tang attaching iron of both the push-button and turn-lever variations. This was verified by weighing all three examples, with the only explanation being that the lighter weight of the final, second pattern design stock was the result of three “weight reduction” holes located at the butt end of the stock.

Since the butt end of the stock is covered with buffalo horn, the only way to identify the presence of holes is to remove the buffalo horn end plate, which is not suggested due to its delicate nature and potential for damage. Fortunately, it wasn’t necessary, as a picture was located of a stock with the buffalo horn plate removed, showing the three holes. The diameter of the holes were identified to be approximately 0.67-inches, however, the depth of the holes was/is unknown. The depth of the holes were assumed to be three inches when calculating the weight of the removed wood, making it fall in line with the weight of the first pattern stocks without these holes.

The weight of the removed wood from the three holes was calculated and added to the weight of the final production stock. With this added weight, the final production stock weight is approximately the same as the first pattern stocks, falling exactly halfway between the two first pattern stock weights. As a secondary effect, the added holes effected the balance of the Luger hunting carbine pistol/stock combination.

Since it has been established that the wood used on all Old Model Luger hunting carbine stocks was “seasoned walnut” the density or weight of walnut was identified and used with the hole diameter and an extrapolated depth of three-inches, which yielded a weight commensurate in percentage to the difference in weight of the first and second pattern Luger hunting carbine stocks.

The conclusion being that the very few made, first pattern, single-screw Luger hunting carbine stocks lack “weight reduction” holes, which were, apparently, not a consideration until the final design production manufacture, second pattern stock, which was slightly larger in the neck of the stock due to the larger height of the two-screw, longer length attaching iron tangs, slightly increasing the overall weight of the production stocks, necessitating the adding of the three weight reduction holes, compensating or neutralizing for the possibly perceived issue of increased weight.

That the holes exist in all old model production Luger hunting carbine stocks is certain, however, less certain is the absence of these weight reduction holes in all of the first pattern, single-screw hunting carbine stocks, due to the extreme scarcity and subsequent lack of availability of examples to verify the conclusions reached.

Without doubt, the very few made, first pattern, single-screw attaching iron, turn lever hunting carbine stocks were short-lived, being quickly eclipsed by the two-screw, longer tang, larger attaching iron, final production version, although they would also fit the two-screw variation attaching iron, nevertheless making the first pattern single-screw, turn-lever attaching iron Luger hunting carbine stock the rarest of all Luger hunting carbine stocks. It should be noted that the internal attaching iron/wooden stock interface machining changes from the single-screw to the two-screw, are also referred, as stated above, as the first and second pattern.

Also, a few of the first manufactured commercial Luger hunting carbine rigs in the mid 21xxx, serial number range, examples being 21620 and 21644 were fitted with the first design, smaller 35 mm neck hunting carbine stocks with the single-screw, turn lever, corresponding 35 mm height attaching irons. The integral stock lugs of the new production, old model, final frame forgings were made to fit the final production old model hunting carbine stocks, two-screw turn lever attaching irons and the very few remaining inventories of the earlier design Luger hunting carbine stocks with single-screw turn lever attaching irons.

Presentation Chilean type Lugers

Since all three are GL hallmark stamped, with two of the presentation Lugers having unique scalloped style oval cartouche enclosed gold inlaid chamber crests, being 10008 and 10010 are of unidentified personages. It is exactly the unidentified chamber crest initials of KW on 10008 and SP on 10010 suggests, for reasons unknown that these particular 1900 – 1901 manufactured Lugers were possibly intended, but never presented and remained in DWM inventory until updated sometime before WW1, probably circa 1902 – 1906 and eventually sold off to the public in the early 1920s, as evidenced by the added commercial proofs.

It is suggested, mostly by the seller, that the KW chamber crest initials on the subject Chilean type Luger 10008 is Kaiser Wilhelm, however, that seems highly unlikely, due the esoteric and experimental nature of the rather delicate and complex mechanics of the Chilean type variation 2-4-6 multi-position adjustable tangent rear sight. Additionally, the Kaiser is pictured using a circa 1902-03 production Luger hunting carbine rig.

Interestingly, including 10008 and 10010, there are no other known Chilean type Lugers identified with any gold inlaid chamber crest. Since these 2-4-6 multi-position rear link sight Chilean Lugers may be associated with the Chilean trials, it is possible that 10008 and 10010 were intended for South America personage associated with the trials.

Gold inlaid chamber crests are more prevalent in the 1-3-5 multi-position adjustable tangent rear sight Luger hunting carbines, prototype and production, unfortunately, also, mostly of unidentified personages, domestic and foreign.

The Chilean 2-4-6 multi-position adjustable tangent rear sight carbine was a DWM, very esoteric, limited, over complicated experiment, although a possible precursor to the circa 1904 Transitional Navy Lugers. And as such, the Chilean variation was virtually unknown to the Luger collector until about 2010 when the Chilean variation was finally discussed at length in Pistole Parabellum and The Borchardt Luger & Automatic Pistols, both by Görtz/Sturgess. Prior to these publications, little was known about these unique Luger pistols and even as recent as the mid-1980’s the variation was considered not to exist.

Per a noted, period Luger author and collector, who published an article in the © MCMLXXXV or 1985, 4^th edition of the Gun Collector’s Digest on page 63, titled Luger Literature, when discussing an early German commercial navy manual, states in a caption, picturing a fixed rear sight Chilean Luger push-button rig that: (Bottom) Title page of DWM manual for the Navy Model Commercial Luger. Note that the pictured model composite drawing of 1900 variation with longer barrel – such a variation was probably never produced.

Since the 1980s when Luger collecting interest surged, and well into the 21st century, several fake, facsimile examples of the variation have been identified, examples with both fixed “V” notch rear links and adjustable tangent rear sight links, of which these “pretenders” are a danger to the unsuspecting collector, and at the same time, ironically a “badge of honor”, indicative of the rarity and desirability of the variation.

Summary of 10008. Externally viewed Chilean type “presentation” Luger pistol 10008 with the same style of scalloped oval cartouche gold inlaid chamber crest as 10010 has been similarly modified as Chilean type 10005, except for the 10008, 12-inch barrel replacement, and indicating, based on the close proximity of the sns, that all were modified in the same pre-WW1 time frame, possibly requiring that a single digit number, at least with 10005, be added to all parts so as not to get them mixed up, although, since all parts of 10005 were numbered at original manufacture, another explanation is needed.

This is a theory only and cannot be verified without access to 10010 or other, yet unknown examples. As stated above, this also indicates that while 10005, 10008 and 10010 were initially made as presentation guns, to individuals unknown, that they were most likely never presented, remaining in DWM inventory until pre-WW1 updated, while still remaining in inventory through the war until excessed in the 1920s. It should be noted that the lack of commercial proofs on 10010 and a GERMANY export stamp on both 10008 and 10010 and with the different type of commercial proofs on 10008, that both 10008 and 10010 may have taken different time frame and export paths than 10005.

Actually, there is a historical trail of ownership of 10010 that traces its origins in the United States back to the 1950s and earlier. This information is presented in a March 1966 Guns & Ammo article which prominently pictures 10010 on its cover, titled: Immortal Luger – World’s most fascinating handgun. The history and “current” status of 1901 Chilean Luger 10010, as of the March 1966 Guns & Ammo article, is presented where it states:

As it is with so many German weapons, this piece was apparently brought from Europe by a returning G.I. and was purchased by Dwight Prouty, Jr., of South Pasadena in the late Forties. A few years later it was sold to Fred A. Datig, author of the Book “The Luger Pistol”. The gun then passed through the hands of several collectors and is now part of the collection of Tom Gilbert, owner of the Brass Rail gun shop in Hollywood^[2].

Moving forward from the 1966 Chilean Luger, Guns & Ammo article, 10010 ended up in the †Ralph Shattuck Collection, pictured in the 1991 Luger: The Multi-National Pistol by C. Kenyon, Jr. on pages 55 and 57. 10010 was last seen being offered for sale on a web site titled: Phoenix Investment Arms.

A final comment on 1901 Chilean Luger 10008

While 10008 is a valuable, rare Luger, however, to the Luger collector purist, it is unfortunate that it did not survive with its original 7-inch barrel and flat board/holster original, single-screw attaching iron push-button stock or a first pattern, single-screw, turn lever hunting carbine stock configuration.

The Curious Case of the Hiram S. Maxim GL Hallmark Presentation Carbine 9109.C. stock lug gap

Pictured below are multiple views of the push-button/turn lever combination stock lug of the GL hallmark Hiram S. Maxim Presentation Luger Carbine 9109.C. The picture encompasses a 42-year time span from 1977 to 2019. In the 1977 and 1991 pictures of the left and right-side view of the stock lug shows it to be unaltered, or at a minimum, firmly “reattached” to the lower rear gripstrap. Cell phone pictures were taken of the 9109.C. stock lug at the January 2015 Rock Island Auction, a.k.a. RIA display in Las Vegas of three separate views, showing in detail the method used to reattach the stock lug.^[3]

The 2019 Rock Island Auction pictures only a detail right-side profile view of the stock lug, however, showing a curious gap as compared to an original push-button/turn lever stock lug combination, not seen in the 1977 and 1991 views. In another profile view that compares the January 2015, three view stock lug picture of 9109.C. vs. the May 2019 RIA auction picture close-up, along with the above mentioned gap, shows a currently unexplainable alignment inconsistency of the upper and lower rivet attachment positions, specifically the upper attachment along with an apparent detachment of the upper, thin section termination of the reattached stock lug to the gripstrap. 

Since the January 2015 RIA, three view pictures of the 9109.C. stock lug shows a consistent alignment of the upper and lower rivet attachment positions vs. the May 2015 RIA auction picture, the explanation or difference occurred somewhere between 2015 and 2019, apparently while in the possession of RIA.

The Rock Island Auction description excerpt of the 9109.C. stock lug states: At one point, the top of the stock lug was ground off (probably back in the 40s or 50s) over concern about compliance with the 1934 Federal regulations at that time with the shoulder stock. The lug was period repaired with a small piece being grafted on top to make it functional with the stock (attaching) iron.

The © 1959 Luger Variations book by Harry Jones on page 261 has a more accurate description regarding the stock lug removal: Many Lugers ore found that have the stock lug ground off; some stocks have the attaching “iron” removed or else the slot is filled in with solder, plastic or steel. Even if the slot of the attaching iron is filled in, the combination is still illegal. In order to comply with present regulations, the iron must be missing from the stock or else the Luger must have the stock lug ground off. A Luger that has stock lug removed is considerably reduced in value; a stock that has the iron “missing” is reduced very little in value and the gun/stock combination is still very valuable to collectors.

The statement that the lug was period repaired with a small piece being grafted is not completely accurate as the small piece described actually appears to be the removed portion of the actual stock lug, not grafted, but reattached using two counter sunk, possibly pan head flush filled machine screws through the gripstrap wall, terminating internally, anchored in the gripstrap wall, adjacent to the lower anchor position of the recoil spring. Assuming the reattached stock lug is original to 9109.C. indicates that it was reattached shorty after its “mandatory” removal.

Also, note that the 9109.C. stamped single-screw attaching iron hunting carbine stock affixed to the 9109.C. carbine Luger is not completely fully installed or seated on the rear gripstrap repaired/reattached stock lug, as evidenced by the lower positioning angle of the stock and the horizontal, unlocked position of the turn lever vs. the proper installation of the hunting carbine stock to the 9109.C. Luger carbine pictured on page 16 in the © 2000 pocket booklet titled: Lugers of Ralph Shattuck. This is another indication of damage to the reattached stock Lug occurring sometime in the nineteen years after 2000 and 2019, or 2015 and 2019.

Since the Ralph Shattuck 1901 prototype Carbine 58, along with the Ralph Shattuck Hiram S. Maxim presentation Carbine 9109.C. were both on display at the January Las Vegas gun show RIA display, it is interesting that only Carbine 58 was offered at the subsequent April 2015 RIA auction, while the Hiram S. Maxim Presentation Carbine was not offered by RIA at auction until May of 2019.

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[1] To the naked eye, at first glance, except for the slight glare in the otherwise original rust blue of the single-screw, turn lever attaching iron upper tang, the finish appears original. It is not until a high-resolution picture was taken showing metal disturbance, which is emphasized or enhanced by successive modification of the original high resolution picture identified as, view1, view 2, view 3 of increasing contrast adjustments that clearly show disturbed finish, indicating a modification of some sort.

[2] Per an October 1995 article in the Los Angeles Times, the Brass Rail Gun shop was still in business.

[3] Since the pictures were hastily taken with a hand-held iPhone camera with the 9109.C. carbine being held by an RIA employee against a dark brown background, the slightly out-of-focus pictures had to be cleaned-up to better show the gap (s) in the reattached stock lug, hence the unnatural, white background appearance.

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