 
SUV./19/Vesihiisi
Auction description: This is an example of a DWM Model 1920 Luger sn 4364l that was issued to one of the pro-German Finnish Army units after WWI.[1] It is a standard 1920 rework in all respects with the exception of two key points; the left side of the barrel extension (receiver left side) is stamped with the "boxed/SA" Finnish Army issue proof [2] and the right grip panel has a quarter sized brass unit disc inset into the grip that is stamped "SUV./19/Vesihiisi". Also the base of the magazine has the same (albeit smaller) "boxed/SA" proofmark. The chamber area is blank and the front toggle has the "DWM" factory logo. The left side of the receiver, breechblock and underside of the barrel all have the "Crown/N" commercial firing proof. It is correctly marked "GESICHERT and GELADEN" on the safety and extractor respectively and it is fitted with checkered walnut grips. It has the standard commercial serial number placement with the full serial number on the underside of the barrel and front of the frame with no number on the barrel extension (receiver). The small components have the last two digits of the serial number "64" marked on them. It is complete with a late WWII, all blue magazine with an aluminum base, which as noted is stamped with the smaller "boxed/SA" proof.
Auction “opinion” of Condition: Very good as refinished with half of its mixed blue finish overall with wear on all the edges and high spots, with the grip strap having faded considerably and are artificially browned. The smaller parts retain 70% of the refurbished straw colors. The grips are in very good condition with nice checkering overall showing an extra coat of varnish applied to the wood. A scarce Luger variation. Note: The bluing is DWM/BKIW original as are the grips except for the restrawed parts.
It should be noted straightaway that there are, at least, three Finnish m/23 Parabellums with the identical, apparently pantograph applied SUV./19/Vesihiisi marked brass discs, inletted in the right side wooden grip. These are listed in chronological order of 1920s manufacture based on the serial number letter suffix.
- Finnish m/23 Parabellum 4364l, first pictured in LTMNP © 1991, page 121 and pictured and identified by serial number in a 2016 RIA auction catalog.
- Finnish m/23 Parabellum 1867m,first pictured and identified by serial number in a 2013 on-line internet auction.
- Finnish m/23 Parabellum 8074n, first pictured and identified by serial number in a 1985 National Automatic Pistol Collectors Association, a.k.a. NAPCA Auto Mag, Volume XVIII, Issue 3 and pictured in Axis Pistols, © 1986 by J. Still, page 308, Figure 99.
Background
- The first publication with general background material on the m/23 Parabellum Pistooli in the Finnish submarine service can be found in the National Automatic Pistol Collectors Association, a.k.a. NAPCA June 1985 issue of AUTO MAG, Volume XVIII, Issue 3, page 54 in a short, but informative article by Gene Stevenson. The article is particularly interesting as it presents another Finnish submarine service m/23 Luger with an identical brass disc SUV./19/Vesihiisi example, except with an 8074n serial number, identified as part of the G. Stevenson collection. Subsequently, the Stevenson Finnish submarine 8074n m/23 Luger was pictured in the 1985 J. Still publication Axis Pistols on page 308, Figure 99 with a text caption stating: Finnish Submarine Service Luger serial number 8074n, with SA on left receiver and in 30 caliber. A brass disc is inset into its right grip, the markings of which indicate it is the 19th issued to the sea-going submarine Vesihiisi. G. Stevenson research and collection.
- The Luger Book by John Walter, © 1986, page 112, F18 Finland: guns – 1n 1924, a German naval officer, Korvettenkapitan Karl Bartenbach, was appointed as adviser to the Finnish navy. In 1926, three submarines were ordered from Crichton-Vulcan Oy of Turko (Abo). The trio was German designed and AG Bremer-Vulcan of Hamburg held a substantial shareholding in the shipyard.
Subsequently, twenty-five Parabellums were issued to each of the submarines of the Verehinen class:Vetehinen, Vesihiisi and Iku-Turso, plus an unknown number for the tiny A+Saukko (all four launched in 1930-1) and the later Vesikko of 1933.
- The Luger Story© 1995 also by J. Walter discusses the Finnish m/23 Parabellum Pistoole in expanded detail on pages 168 – 169. Many m/23 Lugers bore unit-marking discs until the system was abondoned in 1940. Other marks were simply stamped into the board-type shoulder stock.
The original Lugers were blued, though many were eventually pakerized for service in extreme conditions. The most common property marking is ‘SA’ (Suomen Armeija, ‘Finnish army’). Pictured is a typically encountered refurbished Finnish m/23 Luger with a Tikka (made by Oy Tikkaakoski Ab) barrel replacement with the right side grip brass disc removed.
One surviving gun has a 25mm brass marking disc, inlet in the right grip, reading SUV./19/Vesihiisi with 19 being the issue number. (‘Suv.’ is an abbreviation of Sukellusvene, Finnish for ‘submarine’.) By the commencement of the Winter War in 1939, the Finns had a small, efficient navy ranging from tiny minesweepers to icebreakers. However, pistol requirements were small, even the largest vessels, the 3,900-ton Väinämöinen and Ilmarinen coast-defence ships, only carried four hundred men. Note: The Finnish submarine service information presented in The Luger Book, © 1986 by J. Walters generally echos the information presented in the June 1985 AUTO MAG publication.
The June 1985 Auto Mag statement that: The handgun on each boat consisted of 5 rifles and 25 Parabellum pistols (m/23 Lugers) is correct. However, the statement that: All weapons were ordered directly from the foreign manufactures by Crichton-Vulcan and were delivered to the shipyard by the end of 1930 does not comport with the fact that the three m/23 Parabellums with the identical SUV./19/Vesihiisi stamped brass discs have serial numbers with distinctive early contract manufacture letter suffix series of l, m and n, being delivered between 1923 and 1928 as defined by Table 1a in Wiemar Lugers and Their Accessories of the 20th Century by J. Still.
If, as stated by Stevenson in Auto Mag that the Finnish submarine m/23 Parabellums were supplied/delivered to the shipyard in 1930, which, coincidently per Table 1a the last contract deliveries were in 1930, one would expect the 25 per submarine allotment would have serial numbers in the letter suffix range of q, r and s and not in the l, m, and n letter suffix range as are the three subject Vesihiisi marked m/23 Parabellums. Since by 1930 all contract Finnish m/23 Parabellums were delivered, it is most likely that the small batch of Finnish submarine service m/23 Parabellums were obtained from existing arsenal inventory, hence any future discovery of Finnish submarine service Lugers would populate the whole range of BKIW (formally DWM) commercial 30 Cal Lugers manufactured from 1923 to 1930.
The only publication to feature the subject Finnish m/23 model Luger 4364l appeared in the well-known book titled Luger: The Multi-National Pistol, ©1991 by Charles Kenyon, Jr. on pages 120 and 121 with the description: This particular pistol (4364l) is fitted with a brass disc inlet to the right grip panel. The marking, illustrated on the example shown, indicates that this example was assigned to the Finnish submarine “VESIHIISI” service. This branch of the Finnish military being quite small, it utilized vey few sidearms (25), making this pistol an extremely interesting and unusual contract Luger pistol.
The monumental three volume publication titled The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols by †Görtz/Sturgess, © 2010 & 2011, interestingly, does not discuss or aknowledge the extremely rare Finnish Submarine m/23 Parabellum Pistooli 23 SUV./19/Vesihiisi example, though it does, however, in volume II, Chapter 11 – Manufactures & Contracts, page 701 describe the Finnish disc inserts in the following manner: Originally brass unit marking discs were inlet into the right grip, but these were removed during WWII, and are consequently very rare today. Click here for history of Finnish submarine Vesihiisi.
It is not certain if a Finnish made holster was issued with the subject 4364l Finnish submarine Vesihiisi issue m/23 or “Parabellum” Pistooleor if it was marked other than with the standard Finnish military SA property stamp. Another unknown is if the m/23 was used as a carbine, requiring a German Artillery m/23 board-stock in the submarine service as was initially used early on in the Finnish army. Although the question is somewhat resolved, based on the picture of the first 1931 Vesihiisi submarine crew, where there are 24 pictured crew members with one standing officer on the right with what appears to be a Finnish Luger holster/board-stock rig, similar to the pictured example. The 25th member of the crew probably took the picture. Other pictures of crew on submarine: Vesihiisi launch, torpedo room and cruising on open sea.
Pictured in The Luger Book is a typical Finnish OULU made holster for use with a German Artillery m/23 board-stock, interestingly, modified by adding “D” rings for use with a shoulder strap, while retaining the original carbine Artillery Luger type wooden board-stock strap harness.
M1923 Finnish Luger 8074n SUV./19/Vesihiisi – The Pretender, No. 1–
There must be something special about SUV./19/Vesihiisi as there are at least two pretenders, with Pretender No. 1 featured in the June 1985 Jan C. Still book Axis Pistols third printing with update, © 1989 which pictures 8074n on page 308.
Since Axis Pistols by Still was printed in 1989 and the first published picture of the subject Finnish m/23 navy SUV./19/Vesihiisi brass disc marked Luger was first featured in Luger: The Multi-National Pistol © 1991 by C. Kenyon, Jr., later indentified to be serial number 4364l, and 8074n, the early 1989 Axis Pistols publication of Pretender, No. 1 could not be challenged, ergo the Axis Pistols picture presentation of 8074n as the original Finnish submarine m/23 Parabellum Pistoole SUV./19/Vesihiisi weapon was understandable, made even more difficult as the 4364l serial number of the original was never documented or identified until the December 2015 Rock Island Auction offering and subsequent identity in this article.
M1923 Finnish Luger 1867m SUV./19/Vesihiisi – The Pretender, No. 2–
As in all rare Lugers there are pretenders, as is in this case, although it took almost 28 years, when the original Finnish Vesihiisi 4364l Luger was first noted in 1991, for m/23 Finnish Luger 1867m, Pretender No. 2, to appear in a 2013 web site auction. m/23 arsenal refurbished Finnish Parabellum Pistoole serial number 1867m, which was pictured and described in a December 2016 Luger Forum discussion of Finnish Luger attributes of m/23 Finnish Luger 795t.
M1923 Finnish Luger 1867m is indeed an otherwise authentic contract SA property marked, arsenal refurbished example that has been modified by adding a brass disc with the identical SUV./19/Vesihiisi brass disc marking of the subject 4364l. Since 19 is the “issue” number, it is quite evident that there cannot be three Finnish Lugers with the same assigned Vesihiisi submarine weapon issue number. Also, being an arsenal refurbished example, it is nigh impossible that it escaped the WW2 mandatory removal of the brass identification disc. Additionally, when the Finnish m/23 Parabellum Pistoole was finally excessed from the Finnish military arsenals in the mid-1980s, any remaining Finnish m/23s with brass discs were removed.
The faker, in this instance relied on the passage of time and counting on some collectors lack of research when offering 1867m to the collecting public through a web site auction, that also did not exercise its due diligence or, more than likely, was totally unfamiliar with the Finnish submarine service Luger variation despite the rather detailed auction description, most likely provided by the seller.
Web site auction description of m/23 Finnish Luger 1867m
Model 1923 DWM Finnish Military Luger Semi-Automatic Pistol, with holster, #1867m, .30 Luger cal., 3.78'' barrel, Finnish arsenal blue, factory checkered walnut grips, with mismatched tin-plated wood base magazine. Holster contains cleaning rod, combination tool, and has pouch for additional magazine, which is not present. Chamber area is blank, toggle link marked DWM, with boxed ''SA'' marking to left side of upper receiver just behind crown-''N'' proofmark. Back of frame marked ''EK 39''. Right side grip with 1'' dia. brass disc marked ''suv./19/Vesihiisi''. These pistols are considered somewhat rare with approx. 6500 mfg'd. Condition is fine to near excellent as arsenal refinished with overall matte blue. Grips show moderate flattening. Action remains crisp, bore is fine. Holster remains in very good condition with minor losses to stitching and overall scuffs and oil darkening. Boxed ''SA'' marking is clearly visible above strap. Est.: $1,200-$1,800. (C&R) SOLD 2013 Feb 02 for $1,500 + 17% premium. [3]
Luger Forum comments
Looking at the (795t) Luger for sale, the disc looks to be force fit into the grip. The Finnish Luger grips that I have with discs in place are seated very well into the grip using brass screws.
Yes, that (795t brass disc) is a pretty crude fit and I would be a bit suspicious about its authenticity...but, I have not observed a lot of the Finn grips so perhaps there were some field modifications made that were not up to the standard of arsenal work. However, having said that, I would not pay any premium for those grips, they just aren't right IMHO. The same comments for 795t apply for 1867m.
Two photos of a disk One (4364l) looks real on an old gun and the other (1867m) disk is a "repro" disk and mounted too straight, upright. That is a really rare submarine disc! We did not have too many of them. Do you have it, or just a photo? "Vesihiisi" is a sea monster or some sort of a devil.
The “good” photo was from a Kenyon book and the disk is mounted a bit rotated, clock-wise. The "phony" disc (1867m) seems to have been copied from the photo in the Kenyon book but the maker made a mistake and mounted it on the grip pointing straight upwards. Plus the disc looks too new/fresh. End of Luger Forum comments.
Although the SUV./19/Vesihiisi brass disc information may have come from the LTMNP book, the template for the copies did not, as the highest resolution scan made from the book does not show the details revealed in a high resolution digital photograph of the original, of which were not replicated in the aftermarket brass disc “pantographed” copies.
It is interesting with the Luger Forum, being sponsored by J. Still, that in the discussion of the m/23 Finnish Lugers and brass identification discs with the questionable (Pretender No. 1) Vesihiisi 1867m example noted, did not aknowledge or address Pretender No. 2, example 8074n pictured in the 1989 book Axis Pistols authored by J. Still.
Regarding the collector comment about the rotational position of the brass disc in the right side wooden grip, no Finnish arsenal or army/navy instructions have been identified regarding, in this case, the rotational placement of the disc, they are, however, generally found in two positions;
- inserted with the two mounting panhead screws parallel to the frame rail and,
-
with the two mounting screws perpendicular to the 55.5 degree grip angle,
although, most identified Finnish brass discs are positioned perpendicular.
Unresolved Issues
All three SUV./19/Vesihiisi marked brass discs were properly sized and dimensioned. This can be seen in an overlay annimation of the three brass discs. The conclusions reached are that all three brass disc “markings” are basically identical in font size, style and positions, with some minor differences. This suggests that at least two, 1867m and 8074n were pantograph applied using a template of some sort. Problems created with this scenario are that if all three are authentic, then the number 19 is not an issue number and that all 25 weapons assigned to the Vesihiisi have identically marked brass discs, with the only destinctive identity being the m/23 individual BKIW factory applied serial numbers.
Some collectors have suggested that all the brass discs markings, Finnish army and navy, should be stamped and not pantographed applied, making all three Finnish SUV./19/Vesihissi brass discs forgeries, which if true, how or why was the issue number 19 selected? It is true that all observed brass discs to date, inletted in Finnish army SA stamped m/23 Parabellums are stamped, however, does not mean the Finnish navy or submarine service m/23 Parabellum brass discs were stamped, as with the only known Finnish submarine service m/23 Parabellum brass disc example being pantographed applied.
All observed Finnish army m/23 Parabellum brass discs are distintively different, using a wide variety of various letter character and numeric font styles and sizes, being poorly stamped and hastily installed, suggesting no arsenal or depot rules standardization whatsoever. However, the Finnish submarine service chosen method of applying the brass discs information with the letter characters conforming to the outer circumference of the brass disc, probably necessitated the pantograph method of application. Additionally, based on the relatively high quality marking application of the subject 4364l brass disc, most likely all of the small batch of Finnish submarine service m/23 Parabellum brass disc markings were done at the same time.
Pictured are LOB example 1, P/RUK/20 and example 2, ASE/191. Note that the 1 used in the SUV./19 is the European style “1” without the lower horizontal serif, whereas the “1” with the horizontal serif used in the ASE 191 brass disc stamping is a different European style. It is also interesting to note that the crook or point in the 9 of 19 (circled) is replicated in all three examples, yet curiously, the brass disc letter character fonts of 4364l are different from 1867m and 8074n. Questions remain:
-
If 1867m and 8074n are assumed to be pantograph applied, what was the template?,
-
It seems unlikely that 4364l was the donor since it has been locked up in a private collection for the best part of 25 years.
However, in contradiction to the above assertions, a subtle difference noted with the subject 4364l brass disc SUV. letter fonts is that the top curve in the S terminates in a bulbous type shape as does both the verticle terminations of the U and the V and in the lower leg terminations of s-i-h-i-i of Vesihiisi. These terminations don’t occur with the SUV. and Vesihiisi brass discs character fonts of 1867m and 8074n. This suggest that the 4364l brass disc SUV./19/Vesihiisi is indeed pantograph applied as were 1867m and 8074n, however, with a template different from the subject 4364l. Other observed Finnish army m/23 Parabellum Pistoole brass disc markings identified have been applied by stampings.
Furthermore, a side-by-side comparison of the two identically marked brass discs of 1867m and 8074n shows that the forger went to great efforts to replicate the numeric and letter character font style and size of the original, yet neglected to properly recess mill the possibly replacement right side wooden grip to accept the disc and additionally didn’t take the effort to properly flush mount the two panhead brass wood screws by countersinking the two brass disc anchor holes.
Additionally, note the lack of verdigris surrounding the disc circumference/wood interface and bright brass looking engraving recess markings of 1867m vs. the darker, indistinguishable engraving markings and verdigris caked disc circumference/wood interface of the 4364l original, a result of many years of ageing.
Part of the installation or fitting of the 25mm diameter marked brass discs in the circular milled recess in the right side wooden grip involved removal or softening of the upper circumferal edge of the brass disc by polishing or filing. Once the the brass disc was inletted and secured by two countersunk, flush mounted, panhead slotted brass screws, further filing was sometimes required if the screws did not seat flush to the brass disc. This finishing process was done to assure that the palm of the hand, while gripping/grasping the grip was not cut or abraded by any sharp metal edges.
The subject 4364l exhibits these finishing characterestics described above as does another m/23 Parabellum Pistoole 5245l with inletted brass disc in the collection.[4] The two other SUV./19/Vesihiisi marked brass discs of m/23 Parabellums 1867m and 8074n clearly do not exihibit these characteristics. Also the brass discs, being of soft metal, the overall smoothness was accentuated or effected by long term contact within the holster while being jostled in the field. This additional effect can be seen on the subject 4364l and 5245l, both showing high edge long term holster storage, however, is not seen on 1867m and 8074n.
Pictured are the three SUV./19/Vesihiisi marked brass discs, one real and two pretenders (fakes). They are identified by serial numbers and date of identification. The brass discs of some Finnish m/23 Parabellum Pistoole and Finnish m/27 rifles are affixed to the wooden butt stock using screws or sometimes rounded tip brass rivets/pins.
WWII Finnish Submarines
The boats were launched in following order:
· Vetehinen on 1 June 1930, building number CV 702.
· Saukko on 2 July 1930, building number Sa 241
· Vesihiisi on 1 August 1930, building number CV 703.
· Iku-Turso on 5 May 1931, building number CV 704.
The commission dates of the boats were:
• Vetehinen on 13 October 1930. First commander lieutenant-commander Ragnar Holmberg.
• Vesihiisi on 2 December 1930. First commander lieutenant-commander Sulo Enkiö.
• Saukko on 16 December 1930. First commander lieutenant-commander Akseli Raninen.
• Iku-Turso on 13 October 1931. First commander lieutenant Arto Kivikuru.
Click here for information about Finnish submarines in WW2.
[1] Issued to one of the pro-German Finnish Army units after WWI is an obtuse way of saying the Finnish submarine service.
[2] Totally incorrect description as the pistol is a 1920s DWM/BKIW new manufacture Finnish “Parabellum” Pistoole 23 or m/23 contract issue 30 Cal Luger and not a 1920s “rework”. The receiver SA marking is not a Finnish military proof, but a Finnish Army (military) property stamp with SA meaning Soumen Armeija or Finnish Army, also located on the magazine aluminum bottom.
[3] The asking price of $1,200 - $1,800 with a hammer price of $1,500 suggest the seller realized he would not get any offers with a higher value, priced accordingly and the buyer, generously speaking, was aware of the aftermarket added brass disc issue, however, did realize the proper value for a Finnish Luger in this condition, despite the fake brass disc.
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