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Short upper and lower single-screw tang, turn-lever hunting carbine attaching iron

A brief discussion is necessary regarding the single-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron, first pattern Luger hunting carbine wooden stock prior to discussing the 9109.C. hunting carbine stock. Sturgess describes these stocks, identical to 9109.C. in the following manner in TBLAP, Chapter 3, page 256 titled: Production Carbines. Certain statements are highlighted and extracted, being specific to the subject and are: The first batch of production carbines produced for commercial sales bore serial numbers in the 21xxx range… The frame machining in the stock fitting area at the base of the rear gripstrap was now based on the final production pattern forging, with greater thickness of metal resulting in a distinct flat about 1 mm wide between the rear edge of the magazine wall and the rear external contour of the grip strap, rather than the near knife-edge of earlier stocked guns… The early stock fitting for the carbines in the low 21xxx serial range was still, however, of the single-screw pattern. This conflicts with the ^†Kenyon opinion expressed in the © 1969 Lugers at Random on page 80 in General Notes describing the opposite page 81 picture of H.C.R 1903, serial number 9112.C. presentation carbine with unmodified, original first frame forging, knife-edge, push-button stock lug states that: The (single-screw tang, push-button) “attaching iron” of the stock is machined accordingly and can NOT be fitted to a standard production (final forging) stock lug, nor (conversely) can a standard, (two-screw, turn-lever) stock be fitted to the special (first forging, knife-edge) lug of a presentation model.

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Then, there are always exceptions to the ^†Kenyon rule as with the early 21300 final frame forging production series carbines as Sturgess states in TBLAP, V1, C3, page 256, that some of these early, first batch production carbines were fitted with spare, interim single-screw tang, turn-lever hunting carbine stocks were fitted to final frame forging production Luger carbines, examples being 21446, 21620, 21644, 21663 and 21671 which, no doubt by DWM, prior to sale required modification of the attaching iron and stock lug. Another example of an exception to the ^†Kenyon rule is the opposite mating situation, also described by ^†Kenyon, in this case, of a two-screw, production dimensioned attaching iron mated to a Chilean carbine 10008 with a first frame forging, knife-edge stock lug, modified to a turn-lever, ironically mated to a bizarre two-screw tang, push-button attaching iron, additionally with an unusual shaped hunting carbine wooden stock.

“THE GUN REPORT” V42, #9, Feb 1997 monthly Lugers at Random Q&A section ^†Kenyon describes the stocks of the early 1900 carbines and 175 m/m barrel examples as: The first series of 1902 carbines (21000 – 22100) utilizes a stock with a small “wrist” and a turn lever “attaching iron” also with a short tang and single screw attachment. This implies that the first 1,000 production carbines sport hunting carbine stocks with the single-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron. Again, there are not enough examples identified in this range to support 1,000 production hunting carbines with the interim single-screw, turn-lever attaching iron stocks.

Interestingly, ^†Kenyon in the Feb 1997 Gun Report magazine Q&A section makes the curious closing remark being: For some reason collectors seem to find the single-screw stocks more desirable. Possibly in the 1990s that was the general consensus due to a lack of information, however, in the last 20 years or so, with much more new information discovered on the single-screw tang, push-button and turn-lever attaching iron hunting carbine stocks, finds that the reason for collector interest becomes abundantly clear, in that that they are exclusively associated with the extremely rare, small batch;

1. early pre-production two-digit serial numbered hunting carbines with 1-3-5 adjustable tangent rear sights and,
2. presentation 9100. C series Luger hunting carbines, and,
3. to a lesser extent, some five-digit 21100 production serial number series hunting carbines, all three variations with first frame forging knife edge push-button stock lugs, elevates them to the top tier of Luger rarities and exceedingly rare if they are part of matching rigs.

Regarding the early 21000 production Luger carbines with matching, three-digit serialized, second or final pattern production two-screw tang, push-button attaching iron hunting carbine stocks starting at approximately 21300 to 21700. In this range, Luger production carbines, mostly with mating, three-digit serialized, final pattern, two-screw, turn-lever attaching iron hunting carbine stocks are sprinkled with mating, pre-production, three-digit serialized, first pattern, single-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron hunting carbine stocks as noted in the previous paragraph and the accompanying data base with red asterisks next to the serial numbers.

One can assume, as a rule of thumb, that of the five identified, represent about ten percent of the total or about fifty “mix and match” production carbines with pre-production first-pattern hunting carbine stocks. Interestingly, this suggests many more first-pattern, single-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron hunting carbine stocks were made than expected. This is somewhat supported by Sturgess in TBLAP, V1 C3 page 257 where he states that: …seemingly all of the 23xxx and 24xxx blocks above approximately sn 23400 being standard production carbines with the later twin screw stock fitting. The statement seems to imply that all/most production Luger carbines below serial number 23400 sport the pre-production, first-pattern, single-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron hunting carbine stocks.

However, the above TBLAP V1, C3, page 256 statement that hunting carbines below 21400 sport the pre-production, first-pattern, single-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron hunting carbine stocks is not supportable as the carbines identified in this article with these features are in the 21600 serial number range, and in addition to the pre-production, first-pattern, single-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron hunting carbine stocks are affixed not to final frame forgings, but to first frame (Chilean) forgings with knife-edge push-button stock lugs. Pictured as an example is hunting carbine 21644 which clearly shows in a bottom view of the single screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron affixed to a first frame forging, knife edge stock lug stock lug interface.

Per an LOB data base of identified production Luger carbine serial numbers, the highest serial number identified is 24906, therefore, according to Sturgess, based on only 1506 (24906-23400) Luger carbines that are mated/fitted with the final production pattern, two-screw tang, turn-lever hunting carbine stock. With a total estimated production of approximately 2500 production carbines leaves 2500 minus 1506 or 904 production, first frame forging Luger carbines mated/fitted with pre-production, first-pattern, single-screw tang attaching iron hunting carbine stocks. The low number of identified production Luger carbines with three-digit serial number stamped matching, identified first pattern, single-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron hunting carbine stocks does not support the TBLAP V1 C3 page 257 Sturgess conclusions.

The four-digit C-suffix serial number Presentation Carbines

When observing the C-suffix presentation carbines with their first pattern hunting carbine stocks attached, it appears that the eight identified pre-production presentation carbines 9102.C., 9103.C., 9106.C., 9109.C., 9110.C., 9111.C., 9112.C. and 9116.C., that all except 9102.C., 9106.C. and 9109.C. sport the first, single-screw tang, push-button attaching iron, first-pattern hunting carbine stocks, despite their stock lugs being modified to accept the first pattern, single-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron hunting carbine stock. It should be noted that while there is no identified hunting carbine stock for 9112.C. ^[4], it appears that its’ push-button stock lug has not been modified to accept a turn-lever hunting carbine stock. As for 9116.C. with its production two-screw, turn-lever attaching iron hunting carbine stock, appears to be mated with a final frame forging production carbine.

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Pictured is a table compilation of the known C-suffix pre-production presentation Luger carbines and their hunting carbine stocks. Note that a block of serial numbers, as suggested, were probably not set aside for the C-suffix pre-production presentation carbines and that the gaps may not be missing presentation carbines and are, more than likely, 1900 American Eagle Lugers based on the 9115 serial number American Eagle Luger offered by Simpson Ltd in 2016. Ergo, some of the numbers used in that block (range) for the presentation carbines were assigned by DWM to noted personages or by customer request.

That leaves the H.S.M. March, 1903 gold inlaid chamber marked 9109.C. presentation carbine, one of two identified C-suffix presentation carbines out of eight with the second, interim, single-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron hunting carbine stock. Combined with the fact that 9109.C. first appeared in the March 1967 GUNS magazine, next in the © 1969 Lugers at Random publication on page 79 and in the © 1977 World of Lugers publication on page 141, both pictured without a stock. The March 1967 Guns magazine has an article by ^†Shattuck describing and picturing his 9109.C., Hiram S. Maxim presentation carbine on the cover. The H.S.M. carbine is featured on the cover and on pages 18 and 19 with a caption stating: The author’s Presentation Carbine, together with its accompanying stock, is in virtually mint condition. The left-side of the a carbine and stock are pictured in black and white on page 20, pictured for comparison with the RIA 2015 auction identical left-side view and with a typical circa 1904 production carbine. Note the similar appearance of the striations or grain pattern/direction of the 1967 pictured hunting carbine stock and the production example vs the 2015 purportedly identical left-side color version.

The differences in appearance in the wood grain striation patterns in combination with some comparative dimensions of the distance from the bottom of the grip safety to the top of the attaching iron of the 1967 black and white production carbine and the color production example are identical being 9 mm in length, whereas the 2015 RIA picture of 9109.C., the distance is 14 mm, a difference of 5 mm which is the exact difference in the 35 mm height of the single screw, push-button, turn-lever Luger hunting carbine stock attaching irons vs the 40 mm height of the two-screw, turn-lever production Luger hunting carbine stock attaching iron.

In summary, the 1967 GUNS magazine, page 20 pictures are of two unidentified production carbines, one with and one without a stock and that neither are presentation carbine 9109.C., but of two unknown production Luger carbines, one fitted with an unidentified production Luger hunting carbine stock. It would be only speculation or conjecture as to why the 1967 GUNS magazine article by ^†Ralph Shattuck did not picture the mating stock with 9109.C., however, it is not speculation to therefore conclude that the current, single-screw tang, turn-lever Luger hunting carbine 9109 attaching iron numbered stock may not be original to 9109.C. and that it is possible that the original stock fitted to 9109.C. was a single-screw tang, push-button hunting carbine stock, which is not an unreasonable assumption seeing that the four of the eight C-suffix, first forging, knife-edge push-button stock lug frames with corresponding attaching iron presentation carbines pictured and discussed in this article sport a single-screw tang, push-button hunting carbine stock. There is the remote possibility that when the March 1967 GUNS magazine article was written, for unknown reasons the original stock for 9109.C. was not available. In summary, the 1967 Guns magazine article on Presentation Luger Carbine 9109.C. was mostly promotional in nature and content, providing little information.

The low budget booklet published in 2000 titled: The Lugers of ^†Ralph Shattuck again featured his 9109.C. presentation carbine on page 16 using a color photograph of 9109.C. with a correct single-screw tang, attaching iron, however, despite the Luger hunting carbine stock resembling the RIA 2015 auction picture, albeit of a poor quality resolution, though with enough detail to determine 9109.C. was affixed with a single-screw tang, attaching iron Luger production hunting carbine stock. However, the photograph, while picturing the left-side of the carbine and stock, yet somehow in addition to misspelling “Maxim” (Maxim) several times in the text description also managed to additionally butcher the picture, showing the left-side view of 9109.C. and stock while somehow managing to show the attaching iron opposite right-side spindle end (circled) leaving unknown if the pictured stock is indeed correct. Pictured is an enhanced picture of the 2000 publication Lugers of Ralph Shattuck serial number 9109 left-side hunting carbine stock compared with the 2019 RIA auction picture of same.

Two close-up pictures of the first frame forging, knife-edge, push-button stock lug of 9109.C. clearly shows the intact reattached rear, turn-lever section of the stock lug showing the (1) reattached upper stock lug interface seam and the (2) upper, one of two, flush mount rivets. Pictured are several views labeled 1), 2) and 3) showing the deterioration of the reattached stock lug of the first frame forging, knife-edge, push-button stock lug of 9109.C. through the years 1967 – 2019. Note the final 2019 Rock Island Auction picture numbered 3) with the reattached portion of the push-button/turn-lever stock lug totally missing, exposing the upper and lower gripstrap securing pan-head rivets and shafts.

9109.C. Auction Description Reviewed

The Hiram S. Maxim auction description is the most well-known of the C-suffix serial numbered 1903 chamber dated Presentation Luger Carbines. The auction description states that the attaching iron is of the early type, described by ^†Görtz/Sturgess in TBLAP as used with the first frame forging with knife-edge push-button stock lugs, apparently modified to accept the second pattern, interim design hunting carbine stock with single screw, turn-lever type attaching iron.

The auction description also states that the accompanying, “ correctly made replacement walnut stock” second pattern, interim design hunting carbine stock with single-screw tang, turn-lever type attaching iron, that the attaching iron has been “renumbered” to match the carbine forestock tang 9109.C. serial number stamping. The statement that the single-screw tang, turn-lever hunting carbine stock has been “renumbered” to “match” the Hiram S. Maxim carbine creates issues:

1. was 9109.C. originally assembled with the first design, single-screw tang, push-button attaching iron hunting carbine wooden stock and was it numbered?,
2. with RIA stating that the lower tang of the single-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron was “renumbered” additionally implies or suggests that a number was removed, requiring the area to be reblued, prior to, or after adding 9109, yet there is no evidence to support the “renumbered” claim,
3. since Sturgess states that the first frame forgings with knife-edge push-button stock lugs were used for this series of Presentation Carbines, of which the stock lugs were purportedly (all) converted to accept the second design, single screw attaching iron turn-lever hunting carbine wooden stock at the time of assembly and that the bottom tang of the attaching iron of the current stock was stamped 9109 at that time.

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It is well-known or established that the very early, two-digit circa 1901 prototype/production Luger carbines were mated exclusively with the first-pattern, single-screw tang, push-button attaching iron hunting carbine wooden stocks ^[5] it is, therefore, odd regarding the above scenario with 9109.C., as why change out a perfectly good, functioning first issue, single-screw tang, push-button attaching iron hunting carbine wooden stock.

Part of the answer may rest with the configuration of the first forging, knife-edge frames used for these C-suffix presentation carbines, as to whether they were originally fitted with the forestock tang or added, and if the second pattern, interim design single-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron, Luger hunting carbine wooden stock, at the time, had already superseded the now, short-lived, obsolete first design, single-screw tang, push-button attaching iron Luger hunting carbine wooden stock, which was available at the time of assembly of these C-suffix, four-digit serial number presentation carbines. If the interim, second pattern design, turn-lever Luger hunting carbine wooden stock was available, the first frame forging, knife-edge stock lug was, therefore, modified at original assembly to accept the interim second pattern design with the single-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron, numbered at the time of assembly.

The problem with the above scenario is that the auction description specifically states that the accompanying Hiram S. Maxim presentation hunting carbine stock, single-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron has been “renumbered” to “match” the forestock tang of the Maxim Carbine. This wouldn’t be necessary if the stock was original to the carbine. Also complicating is the fact that the rear gripstrap, knife-edge stock lug of 9109.C. was purportedly, removed early on as part of a 1934 federal regulation regarding stock lugs and it is uncertain that the poorly reattached, removed portion of the stock lug is original to 9109.C. or later installed from part of a production turn-lever stock lug.

Additionally, it is certain that the C-suffix, first frame forgings with integral knife-edge push-button stock lugs needed additional machining to correctly fit a single-screw tang, push-button attaching iron. Specifically, it appears that a secondary machining step, not part of the first frame forgings, was required to the right-side attaching iron upper top portion of the guide channel as described by ^†Kenyon in Lugers at Random: This type of (push-button) stock lug has a slight cam ramp and dwell (detent) in the right groove of the lug to accommodate the attaching iron, spring loaded push-button locking arm. Pictured is a typical close-up view of a correctly milled push-button slot detent in the upper portion of the right-side stock lug curved channel. Note the smooth, recessed milled surface, void of any machining marks.

Since it is certain the original frame forgings lacked this very small 2 mm wide x 6mm length dimensioned sloped detent, it was obviously added, being a secondary milling operation, which suggests that these C-suffix first forging frames used, were deliberately intended for use with the single-screw tang, push-button attaching hunting carbine stocks and not the single-screw tang, turn lever attaching iron hunting carbine stocks, which would not have required the secondary, push-button detent machining step. To further iterate on the secondary machining scenario, the C-suffix turn-lever modified first frame forging knife-edge stock lugs would lack the secondary, push-button required machining, yet four of the eight C-suffix presentation carbines identified in this article are fitted with the single-screw tang, push-button hunting carbine stocks.

Furthermore, it is a general misunderstanding that by simply adding a dish or scoop to the rear surface of a push-button stock lug to accept a one or two-screw, turn-lever type attaching iron that both variations of the stock lug, the push-button and the turn-lever are interchangeable, they are not, and not because of the, albeit minor differences of the stock lugs. It is the hunting carbine attaching irons that are different with the one vs. two-screw versions being dimensionally different with the two-screw production attaching iron, specifically the height being larger or taller by 5 mm, compounded by the curved design of the interface, which creates a binding issue when attempting to fully insert/attach a two-screw attaching iron to a first frame forging, knife-edge stock lug. This is addressed in general terms by ^†Kenyon in Lugers at Random on page 80 General Notes, however, without any specific details.

The ill-fitting of the second pattern, single-screw tang, turn-lever, “renumbered to match” attaching iron Luger hunting carbine stock to the Hiram S. Maxim 9109.C. presentation carbine rear gripstrap, knife-edge, push-button stock lug is clearly noticeable on the Rock Island Auction provided view of the right-side carbine and stock compared against the © 2000, page 16, Lugers of Ralph Shattuck publication picture of 9109.C. Pictured is a close-up the RIA auction photo of the, in-profile right-side, rear gripstrap of 9109.C. stock lug compared against unmodified 10005 combination push-button/turn lever stock lug and a three-view stock lug picture of 9109.C. taken in 2015 while in Las Vegas prior to its first auction.

When comparing the “renumbered to match” 9109 attaching iron one can clearly see that a different stamping method of application is evident as compared to other pictured presentation carbine forestock tang stampings using 9116.C. tang stamping as an example and to other second design, single screw, turn-lever attaching iron stampings. It would be interesting to see the 9109.C. forestock tang stamping for comparison, i.e., similarity of stampings, unfortunately, it is not available.

9111.C. (inscribed M.P.M. | FROM H.C.R. | 1903)

A partial top view of the lesser known, C-suffix pre-production Presentation Luger Carbine 9111.C. is first pictured in the ©1991 publication Luger: The Multi-National Pistol a.k.a. LTMNP by ^†C. Kenyon, Jr. on page 64. It is interesting that in the page 64 text information, ^†Kenyon states a range of 9101.C. – 9110.C., yet pictures a partial top view of 9111.C. This suggests that ^†Kenyon used an unidentified serial number file picture of 9111.C., because as late as 1991 very little was known of the presentation Luger carbine series including, apparently, the complete serial number range.

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The next information on pre-production presentation Luger carbine 9111.C. was 19 years later in the © 2010 & 2011TBLAP publication by ^†Gortz/Sturgess where 9111.C. was briefly discussed in volume I, Chapter 3, page 247 with no mention of a mating stock. No further specific, detailed information on 9111.C., complete with its unique single-screw tang, push-button attaching iron hunting carbine stock was not published until another 6 years later in an October 4, 2016 auction offering by Morphy’s Auction of presentation Luger carbine 9111.C. which included a detailed description with a single, left-side profile picture of carbine and stock. It is curious that all internet searched, indentified pictures of 9111.C. auctioned on October 4, 2016, purportedly by Morphy’s Auctions, have J.D. Julia superinposed logos, even though Morphy Auctions didn’t merge with J.D. Julia until December 2017.

The next appearance of pre-production presentation Luger carbine 9111.C. and mating single-screw tang, push-button attaching iron hunting carbine stock was at the January 2017 Las Vegas Antique Arms Gun Show being offered by Robert Simpson of Simpson Ltd. A discussion at Simpson’s table revolved around the lack of the full four-digit 9111 serial number on the single-screw tang, push-button attaching iron, hunting carbine wooden stock, normally located on the upper or lower tang.

Simpson had no answer, but a detailed inspection of the attaching iron, while detaching the single-screw tang, push-button stock from the 9111.C. first frame forging Luger carbine stock lug for release, required the depressing of the left-side attaching iron spring loaded, slotted push-button to release the opposite side “U” shaped hook from the right-side stock lug channel slot, allowing the stock to be removed from the Luger carbine first frame forging, knife-edge, push-button stock lug. As a result of depressing the left-side attaching iron spring-loaded push-button, forced the normally flush opposite side, retangular shaped, in profile portion of the push-button assembly to extend beyond the surrounding attaching iron surface.

During this process it was noticed that the last two-digits of the 91(11) serial number were stamped on top of the right-side, extended surface edge of the push-button assembly. Actually, with the spring-loaded button of the left-side push-button assemby depressed to its maximum reveals/exposes the opposite right side of only the top half of the numbers. This strongly supports that the application or stamping of the last two-digits of the 91(11).C. serial number was done by DWM prior to assembly of the single-screw tang, push-button attaching iron, in addition to the near identical numeric font size and style compared to some small part stampings of 9111.C.

There could be several reasons for this hidden style stamping, possibly involving the Morphy (actually J.D. Julia) auction description statement that: the Wood on stock has been refinished and checkering has been re-cut. This rework may have required the removal of the attaching iron, inadvertently replacing the original, externally numbered, single-screw tang attaching iron with an unnumbered “spare”, although this would not explain the DWM commercial, hidden style placement of the last two-digits of the serial number on the spring-loaded, push-button assembly, which, though highly unlikely, could have been added later. Regarding the auction description and later in the Simpson description of the stock being re-“checkered” simply “parrots” the J.D. Julia auction description^[6], however, a refinished wooden stock is doubtful as a personal, detailed inspection of the 91(11) first pattern, single-screw tang, push-button hunting carbine wooden stock does not show or exhibit any evidence of being refinished or re-cut checkering.

Regarding the possibly aftermarket application of the last two-digits of the serial number being hidden would serve no practical purpose. Therefore, the hidden commercial style stamping of the last two-digits of the serial number should be considered original, making the single-screw tang push-button attaching iron hunting carbine wooden stock, by default, original to pre-production hybrid presentation carbine 9111.C., its two-digit serial number placement being a prerogative of the original DWM assembler, as are, possibly, the last two-digits of the serial number on the flaming bomb inspection stamped magazine wooden bottom.

The Old Switcheroo

After a review of the scholarly research of ^†Görtz/Sturgess in Pistole Parabellum ©2010, volume 3, chapter 19, page 1441, The Parabellum Magazine, figure 1371 regarding the evolution of the production Luger magazine machining revealed, that while the 9111.C. magazine wooden bottom 11 stamping is correct as is the magazine body, however, although while correct as an assembly, is not period correct for the 1901 made 9111.C. hybrid Presentation Carbine, based on the shape of the magazine exit lips, which indicate that the magazine was made in 1904 or later.

Also, the serial number 11 wooden bottom magazine is unusual for 9111.C. in as much as no C-suffix Presentation Carbines identified in this article has a wooden bottom serial numbered magazine, nor for that matter a GL  logo wooden bottom magazine. Perhaps a previous owner of 9111.C. obtained the serial numbered magazine, not knowing of the subtleties of pre and post 1904 magazine machining, thought it appropriate.

The last seller, a dealer, as part of the description write-up of 9111.C. made the following comment, simply parroting the previous 2016 J. D. Julia auction description that the: Wood bottom mag has flaming bomb proof and added numbers that match, of which incidentally, the flaming bomb is a DWM factory inspection mark, not a proof. While indirectly saying the magazine may not be original to 9111.C. with numbers being “added” is also not totally accurate, with the authenticity being based solely on the “added” numbers and not on the significant fact that is, most importantly, it is the magazine body that is not correct.

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Here is where the story gets interesting, as also part of the LOB collection is another special Luger, being a 1913 Troops Trials pre-production prototype Artillery Luger with a two-digit serial number 11 with commercial style applied, hidden serial numbers. The plain, unnumbered wooden bottom and magazine body that came with the gun was always thought to be correct, however, based again on the ^†Görtz/Sturgess data that the magazine is pre 1904 based on the shape or profile of the magazine body exit lips, being incorrect for a 1913 made, two-digit serial numbered Artillery Luger. Pictured for reference are the barrel underside and stop lug serial number stampings of 91(11) C. and 1913 prototype LP08 serial number 11.

So, it turns out that the post 1904 manufacture magazine with wooden bottom stamped serial number 11 is age or period appropriate for the 1913 prototype Artillery Luger serial number 11 and accordingly the pre 1904 magazine with unmarked, plain wooden bottom that came with prototype LP08 serial number 11 would be correct for 1901 Presentation Carbine 9111.C. This is not to say that this makes both magazines original to both Lugers, just that both magazines are otherwise now, period appropriate to their respective Lugers.

Since 1901 hybrid Presentation Carbine 9111.C. has a GL  logo stamped rear link, one would think that a GL  logo stamped wooden bottom pre-1904 magazine would be more appropriate, based on other dual GL  rear link and magazine GL  wooden bottom examples being circa 1901 Chilean Carbine 10005 and circa 1904/5 New Model prototype 10051B. One conclusion being the combination or occurrence of a GL  logo stamped rear link and a GL  logo stamped wooden bottom is totally arbitrary and capricious.

It’s hard to imagine that the 91(11) Luger hunting carbine stock required rehatching and subsequent restaining based on the fairly decent condition of the 9111.C. presentation Luger carbine itself, despite the J.D. Julia auction and Simpson Ltd rather harsh description of the finish and overall browning condition, combined with the poor quality auction photographs, also used by Simpson Ltd., paints an overall negative portrayal of 9111.C. The J.D. Julia auction description of condition also states: CONDITION: Very good, retaining 60% original blue with touch-up in some areas. Even with a personal, detailed inspection of 9111.C. it is difficult to determine if any areas of the finish have been retouched, however, based on the left side frame panel pictured in the J.D. Julia auction and later Simpson offering, that the referenced side panel compared against recent Land of Borchardt photographs suggest, as an example, that the side panel has been “touched-up”, either while in the possession of J.D. Julia or Simpson Ltd or alternately, simply a case of bad photography by J.D. Julia, copied by Simpson Ltd.

Actually, the carbine and stock, properly photographed, show well with mostly 80 percent finish, except for the barrel, remaining on most surfaces, including the left-side frame panel, chamber top and toggle link assembly and the front and rear gripstraps. The only apparent wear is to the rear gripstrap push-button stock lug, which is partially, the result of many impacts of the attaching iron against the gripstrap area on each side of the push-button stock lug, indicitave of a much used hybrid/production presentation carbine and stock with many rounds expended over a long period of time.

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The balance of the 9111.C. stock lug/attaching iron wear through the bluing to reveal white metal on the rear edge of the push-button stock lug and on each side of the gripstrap and the corresponding wear on the push-button attaching iron recessed channel surface and the contact surfaces on each side of the channel are the result many attachments and detachments, i.e. of sliding of the attaching iron onto, and off of the push-button stock lug. Most of the surface contact wear can be attributed to the poor design of the stock lug, specifically the curved vs straight wall mating surfaces of the stock lug and attaching iron, which is very apparent when attempting to attach the attaching iron to the stock lug. The first few millimeters of the initial insertion of the attaching iron into the stock lug channels require two steady hands and perfect alignment to avoid initial binding or galling of the contacting surfaces.

The initial binding can also be attributed to the rather sharp knife-edge, upper entrance lip of the attaching iron channel^[9]. Once past the first few millimeters into the stock lug channels with alignment established, the attaching iron more easily continues to slide up the stock lug channels and fully seats when the attaching iron, opposite side push-button ”U” shaped, 5 mm wide in height spring-loaded arm engages the stock lug right-side channel detent. Once the hunting carbine stock attaching iron is fully seated to the push-button stock lug 7.5 mm in height, right side channel detent, it keeps the stock in place for firing, however, even when new did/does not firmly hold in place the hunting carbine stock attaching iron against the rear frame integral gripstrap/push-button stock lug interface.

This results in time of a loosening of the interface, allowing the connection to wobble or rock left and right and/or up and down, resulting in an unstable alignment of carbine and stock, affecting the firing accuracy of the rig. This clearly demonstrated when viewing the 91(11) attaching iron push-button right side, straw colored locking tab to the right side stock lug detent that clearly shows wear to the bottom portion of the tab, exacerbating the looseness of the connection over time. This condition was somewhat corrected with the introduction of the interim, single-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron of which, in addition to firmly locking the attaching iron to the stock lug, the caming action of the turn-lever put tension into the interface. It wasn’t until the introduction of the beefier production, two screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron and production final frame forging with stronger and larger integral stock lug that minizied or mostly eliminated the sloppy fitting issue.

Regarding the 9111.C. surface contact wear of the attaching iron/stock lug interface, the wear pattern is not unique to 9111.C. and does not, it itself, establish, that the hunting carbine stock, accordingly, is original to presentation carbine 9111.C. What does establish commonality is the equal wear and loose connection of both components, suggesting a long-term association of presentation carbine 9111.C. with its uniquely configured pre-production presentation hunting carbine stock.

A final issue which needs to be addressed is the “added” dished cut-out or scoop to the rear surface of the 9111.C. stock lug to accommodate the fitting of a second interim, single-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron hunting carbine stock. The white metal, through-the-blueing appearance of the dished cut-out of the 9111.C. stock lug does suggest that, at one time, a single-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron hunting carbine stock was affixed to presentation carbine 9111.C. This, in some collectors opinions, who after examining the current 9111.C. single-screw tang, push-button attaching iron hunting carbine stock pictured in this article, for the cited issue alone, would err toward it not being original to presentation carbine 9111.C.

However, after examining the stock lug/attaching iron interface of presentation carbine 9110.C., which also has a single-screw tang, push-button attaching iron hunting carbine stock, not questioned by collectors, considered to be original to 9110.C., additionally shows, based on the stock lug dished cut-out, that at one time it also was fitted with a single-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron hunting carbine stock. The fact that, as stated earler, four of the eight C-suffix presentation Luger carbines discussed in this article, though while with the added turn-lever dished cut-out to the original first frame forging, knife edge, push-button configured stock lugs, all four sport single-screw tang, push-button attaching iron hunting carbine stocks.

Therefore, until these mystery C-suffix series, single-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron hunting carbine stocks are identified, by serial number the default, current configuration of presentation carbines 9110.C. and 9111.C. with their corresponding serial numbers are matching, extant, correct original configurations.

Despite the above scenario regarding the stock, are difficult to support as H.C.R. is associated with two other C-suffix presentation Luger carbines, 9112.C. with H.C.R. as the recipient and 9116.C. with H.C.R. as the doner, presenter or bestower. Unfortunately, there are no published pictures of the 9112.C. hunting carbine stock or of what type, push-button or turn-lever, however, pictures of the hunting carbine stock of 9116.C. exists, of which the stock is of the final German made production design, two-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron, European walnut hunting carbine stock, also suggesting that the 9116.C. frame is, possibly, the final production forging frame with “beefed-up” stock lug.

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Considering the provenance of the 9111.C. pre-production presentation carbine and mating stock, in that 9111.C. and stock were imported for auction as part of the collection of a German collector, Friedrich-Wilhelm Dauphin, that the presentation Luger carbine and stock were imported through J.D. Julia via Simpson Ltd. with the barrel having the mandated export stamping, does not automatically imbue totally German origins, specifically the stock. Since the chamber inscription includes the word “FROM”, more than likely American, specifically Henry C. Roan, suggesting that the German collector, Friedrich-Wilhelm Dauphin, sometime in the past, obtained presentation Luger carbine 9111.C. and current stock from an American collection or offering or, interestingly, possibly from a descendant of Henry C. Roan.

Then, there is the intriguing, alternate possibility that 9111.C., lacking a GERMANY export stamp, was not received/presented to the recipient M.P.M., i.e. may never have left Germany until recently. The support for this theory is based on the relativey recent circa 2016 import of 9111.C. with the added Simpson Ltd barrel underside import marking required by the BATF.^[10]

Regarding the subject 91(11) hunting carbine wooden stock, questioning its originality to the subject 9111.C. pre-production presentation carbine based on the non-standard, very fancy hatching pattern, Buffalo Horn butt plate and the two, very detailed engraved screws securing it to the the stock, or alternately, the the fancy butt plate embellishment reflects DWM and Georg Lugers artistic liberty, and is exactly what one would expect to find with a gold inlaid, chamber marked pre-production presentation Luger carbine. Additionally, this is not the first instance of a C-suffix hunting carbine stock with cross hatching part, namly being the push-buttons of presentation hunting carbine stocks of 77 and 9103.C.

Pictured together are presentation carbines 9109.C., 9110.C., 9111.C., 9116.C. There are at least three push-button variations being pre-production presentation carbines 77, 9111.C. and pre-production prototype Carbine 35 along with two different styles of Buffalo Horn butt plates, possibly three. The more common fluted or reeded variation and one cross hatching variation. Regarding the single-screw tang, push-button attaching iron hunting carbine stock shape, there are two variations, the smooth, tapered variation with the scoop or “U” shaped wooden cut-out immediately behind the attaching iron around the push-button being 91(11) and most with the above described “U” shaped cut-out on each side and one oddball push-button stock 9103.C. without the left-side “U” shaped scoop or cut-out. What is certain is that the single-screw tang, push-button attaching iron and shape of the Luger hunting carbine wooden stock was not finalized until the final, old model production frame forging with “beefed-up”, two-screw tang, turn-lever attaching iron hunting carbine stock was introduced.

Although, it should be noted that the first, two-digit serial number pre-production prototype carbines with the 1-3-5 multi-position tangent rear sights, exclusively sport the first interim design hunting carbine stocks with the single-screw tang, push-button attaching iron. ^[11] The only C-suffix, four-digit serial number in this category is GL  presentation carbine 9103.C., which, with its rear link adjustable 1-3-5 multi-position tangent rear sight probably represents the last true prototype/presentation/production variation in this prototype/pre-production carbine series.

The 9111.C. Forestock Tang

Another change for production was to the rectangular slot opening in the forward frame attached forestock extension tang, which was enlarged from the pre-production carbine 58 tang slot of 10.2mm in length x 2.3mm in height to 14mm in length x 2.7mm in height. The actual new horizontal opening tang length is 11.5mm as the wider dimension of 14mm is measured at the edge opening because of the chamfering of each end of the opening on both sides. This was done to act as a guide, probably in conjunction with the above stated modification, if the wedge and forestock were not perfectly aligned with the tang slot while inserting the wedge. Pictured are the pre-production prototype tang vs. the production tang.

Another subtle, but interesting difference between the pre-production prototype and production forestock tang, is the location of the “jig” or counterbore, flush mount anchor screw that goes through the 9111.C. serial number forestock stamped tang and the front of the frame. In the pre-production prototype carbine tang the screw entrance is located just forward of the take-down lever locking bolt spring, screwed in at a rearward angle, terminating in the front area of the frame take-down lever locking bolt spindle circular wall. This is the shortest section of the frame, being only 4 mm thick, allowing little support.

The location of the tang, slightly longer screw in the final production forging carbine frame entrance location was moved lower and to the rear of the take-down lever locking bolt spring with the screw terminating in the rear frame lug well, rear and lower of the take-down lever locking bolt circular wall, thereby slightly increasing the depth of the screw and subsequent increased anchor strength. Pictured is the exit or termination of the tang securing screw in the pre-production frame forward lug well take-down lever spindle wall as compared to the typical production tang/frame screw exit location shown in a left side profile cross section X-ray.

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This same location is used on, at least some of the C-suffix presentation carbines identified, which also used the first frame forgings, one example being 9110.C. Since the C-suffix presentation carbines used the final production barrel and wooden forestock, the tang slot for the forestock wedge had to be enlarged from the smaller, pre-production carbine forestock wedge for the larger dimensioned production version, however it still does not represent the final production dimensions as it lacks, like the smaller dimensioned forestock tang wedge, a significant feature.

The actual new horizontal opening tang length is 11.5mm as the wider dimension of 14mm is measured at the edge opening because of the chamfering of each end of the opening on both sides. This was done to act as a guide, probably in conjunction with the above stated modification, if the wedge and forestock were not perfectly aligned with the tang slot while inserting the wedge. Pictured are the pre-production prototype tang rectangular slot vs. the 9111.C. presentation carbine C-suffix pre-production tang rectangular slot and the final frame forging carbine forestock tang rectangular slot. This chamfering is not present on the pre-production-prototype carbine forestock tang slots nor the otherwise larger pre-production presentation C-suffix forestock tang slots, which are rectangular, only without the end chamfers.

M.P.M. FROMH.C.R. 1903_9111.C.

EXTREMELY RARE PRESENTATION LUGER CARBINE WITH PUSH BUTTON STOCK.
DWM 1902 CARBINE 9111.C 7.65 PARA MODERN; C&R; IMPORT Cal. 7.65 Para. 11 ¾-inch barrel with long ramp front sight and 3-position adjustable rear sight, last two-digits of serial number on bottom. M.P.M.FROMH.C.R. 1903 in gold above chamber. DWM scroll on center toggle link. Dished toggles. Numbers on gun are matching, including checkered walnut grips. Trigger is not numbered. Grip safety. Proper C-suffix presentation serial number on bottom of tang that attaches to forearm. Checkered walnut forearm with swing swivel has matching numbers. Wood bottom mag has flaming bomb proof and added numbers that match. “Unnumbered” push-button stock has highly figured walnut and a checkered horn butt plate with engraved screws. PROVENANCE: The Friedrich-Wilhelm Dauphin Collection, Germany. CONDITION: Very good, retaining 60% original blue with touch-up in some areas. Many surfaces are corroded and fading to brown or pitting. Straw is 50% and corroded. Grips are lightly worn with some chips to checkering and are oil soaked dark. Bore is worn with light pitting. Mechanics are very good. Magazine has corroded body and little wear on wood bottom. Forearm has original wood finish with nicks and dings overall, checkering is lightly worn with scattered chips. Wood on stock has been refinished and checkering has been re-cut. Butt plate is excellent with minor imperfections, lug appears to be restored.^[12] 49828-186 BWS (20,000-40,000)

Simpson Ltd February 2017 through October 2021 listing of Presentation Luger Carbine 9111.C.

Simpson Ltd Product Description: 7.65mm; 60% blue, 50% straw, fair bore, fair grips, good stock, 11¾-inch barrel, barrel has long front ramp sight, 3-position adjustable rear sight, last two-digits on bottom. M.P.M. FROMH.C.R. 1903 gold above chamber. DWM scroll on center toggle link. Dished toggles. Numbers on gun are matching, including walnut grips. Trigger is not numbered. Checkered walnut forearm with swing swivel has matching numbers. Wood bottom magazine has flaming bomb proof and “added” numbers that match. PROVENANCE; The Friedrich-Wilhelm Dauphin Collection. Bore is worn with light pitting. Mechanics are very good. Forearm has original wood finish with nicks and dings overall. The stock has been refinished and checkering has been re-cut. Butt plate is excellent with minor imperfections, serial number 9111.C.

European Walnut Burl Wood Veneer

European walnut is blanket name that covers a wide variety of walnut lumber and veneer from Europe. The most common woods found under this category are French, Italian, Circassian, and Russian walnut. The finest European walnut burl veneer comes from trees which are hand-dug from the ground (the burl growth is commonly found at or below the ground level).
Common Name:  European Walnut
Scientific Name: Juglans regia
Family:               Juglandaceae
Color:                  Light brown to gray with some creamy white in the burls
Origin:                Europe (north to Russia and south to Italy), southern Asia
Hardness:           Medium
Texture:              Open-pore, medium
Finishing:          Readily accepts stains and finishes
Did You Know:  European walnut burl never shows its true color and figure until a finish is applied. Our biggest customers for this veneer are those who have bought it in the past and were amazed by the figure that pops out once a finish is applied.

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J.D. JULIA AUCTIONS. LOT #3112:

J.D. Julia 2016 Auction offering of Presentation Luger Carbine 9111.C

 
 
 
M.P.M. | FROMH.C.R. | 1903_9111.C
DWM, 1902 CARBINE, 9111.C., 7.65 PARA, MODERN; C&R; IMPORT

Rock Island Auction February 2018 Presentation Luger Carbine 9116.C
RIA Lot 341: Cased Gold Inlaid '1902 Presentation' Style DWM Luger Carbine 9116.C.
Auction Date: February 15, 2018
Custom Presentation Style Gold Inlaid DWM Luger Semi-Automatic Carbine with Stock, Case and Accessories
Price Realized: $40,250
Estimated Price: $14,000 - $22,500
Rating: NC - FINE- All original finish 90% - 94% or better, some dings in wood wear commensurable with percent of finish. In working order.

Description: While not explicitly documented, nor guaranteed, this professionally customized DWM Model 1902 Luger Carbine shows a close match for the criteria given in ^†Kenyon's "Lugers at Random" for the DWM 1902 Presentation Carbine (pg.78-79), including the 9000-range serial number with upper-case "C" suffix, and the Georg Luger "GL" monogram on the rear toggle. The original 1902 Presentation Carbines were produced under the direct supervision of Georg Luger himself, in an unknown, but very limited quantity. ^†Kenyon's work mentions that only four 1902 Presentation Carbines have been reported and only 3 verified, putting them in the upper tiers of Luger rarity. The chamber is gold-inlaid J.L.M. | FROMH.C.R. | 1903, with the DWM logo on the toggle link, booster-equipped forearm, checkered grips and a mixed numbered buttstock. J.L.M. and H.C.R. are not identified, but the use of "from" instead of the German "von" suggests one or both parties hailed from an English-speaking area, like America or Great Britain. A leather-bound hardwood case is included, along with two extra magazines and a cleaning rod. ^[13]

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Value

In 1997, Aarron Davis published a sofbound booklet of values of all Lugers from 1899 through 1945 titled The Luger Handbook. On page 9 he briefly describes the Presentation Carbines and list values that vary from a poor condition of $45,000 to $100,000 in excellent condition. Since there are less than ten identified Presentation Luger Carbines with gold inlaid chamber markings they rarely are ever offered for sale as collectors tend to keep these rarities to the end. Even rarer with a matching hunting carbine stock. A classic example is the Hiram S. Maxim Presentation Luger Carbine 9109.C. Rock Island Auction estate sale offering of the late Ralph E. Shattuck.

Even though Presentation Luger Carbines have been identified since the 1960s, none have been identified to have been offered in public auctions since the early 2000s. Pictured are five identified four-digit serial numbered C. suffix Presentation Luger Carbines offered at auction since 2000,

1. Borchardt 9106.C., year 2012,
2. Hiram S. Maxim 9109.C, years 2015 & 2019,
3. Max Egon II 9110.C., year 2016,
4. M.P.M. | FROMH.C.R. | 1903 9111.C., year 2016,
5. J.L.M | FROMH.C.R. | 1903, 9116.C., year 2018. As stated above, there are no identified, published auctions of Presentation Luger Carbines prior to 2000.

In September 11, 2015 the Hiram S. Maxim Presentation Carbine was auctioned by RIA and sold for a low, six figure amount and again on May 4, 2019 by RIA and sold for the incredible sum of $425,000, due in part to its incredible rarity and for one of the best Rock Island Auction promotional pictures and description ever. The lesser known Presentation Carbines with unidentifiable Gold inlaid chamber initials have sold for much less, as noted in this article, even in excellent condition, some even lower than the 1997 stated values on page 9 of The Luger Handbook by Aarron Davis. At whatever price, the GL hallmark Presentation Luger Carbines are a coveted, very collectibe item of the early glory days of Luger and DWM.

As an expansion of the above comments it is fitting to include pictures of the evolution of the Luger carbine, beginning with a trio consisting of 1901 preproduction prototype Luger Carbine 58, the subject Presentation Carbine 9111.C and a standard circa 1903-1904 Production Luger Carbine 23526 and their mating Hunting Carbine stocks. This display would not be complete without the "Ugly Duckling", a 1920s Luger Hunting Carbine parts rig serial number 58, V1, V2 and its unique mating 1920s Hunting Carbine stock.

[2] In addition to being soldered into a shallow machined slot in the frame front, the tang was also secured with a flush mount, countersunk or counterbored, single-screw through the tang into the forward frame lug well cavity, terminating next to the take-down spindle shaft. In front or forward of the shaft in the pre-production-prototype and presentation carbine series and to the rear of the shaft in the production carbines. The screw entrance and exit surfaces are usually not noticeable, although some are.

[4] This observation is based on a 1969 Lugers at Random, only known published picture is a black and white photograph of the top and left-side view of 9112.C., of which the stock lug doesn’t appear to be modified to accept a turn-lever attaching iron, however, since no hunting carbine stock for 9112.C. has, as yet, been identified or published, the type of hunting carbine stock for 9112.C., push-button or turn-lever is indeterminate.

[5] Other examples of these early 1900/01, two-digit serial numbered Luger carbine production/prototypes with push-button type hunting carbine stocks being Teddy Roosevelt’s 1900/01 cased “Presentation” carbine, carbines 35, 58. TBLAP, V1, C3, page 238, Fig. 3-142, unidentified two-digit serial number production/prototype carbine and TBLAP page 241, Fig. 3-145, 9103.C. prototype carbine.

[11] It should be noted that prototype/production carbine 58 has had its original knife-edge, push-button stock lug, like 9109.C similarly removed early on as part of a 1934 federal regulation requirement regarding stock lugs, however, it is pictured, photographically mated with original prototype-production hunting carbine 35 stock with single-screw tang, push-button attaching iron.

[12] It is not certain what “restored lug” the J.D. Julia auction is referring to, but there is no visual or machining evidence that the 9111.C. first frame forging, knife-edge, push-button stock lug has been restored or modified in any way, save for initial fitting adjustments.

[13] Note that the case is an aftermarket Huey Custom Case, similar to one featured in a December 2021 RIA auction.